|
Post by residentcheater on Nov 8, 2012 20:11:08 GMT -5
Beginning in 1965, pure methanol was used widespread in USAC Indy car competition, which at the time included the Indianapolis 500. A seven-car crash on the second lap of the 1964 Indianapolis 500 resulted in USAC's decision to encourage, and later mandate, the use of methanol. Eddie Sachs and Dave MacDonald died in the crash when their gasoline-fueled cars exploded. The gasoline-triggered fire created a dangerous cloud of thick black smoke that completely blocked the view of the track for oncoming cars. Johnny Rutherford, one of the other drivers involved, drove a methanol-fueled car, which also leaked following the crash. While this car burned from the impact of the first fireball, it formed a much smaller inferno than the gasoline cars, and one that burned invisibly. That testimony, and pressure from Indianapolis Star writer George Moore, led to the switch to alcohol fuel in 1965. Thats why indy switched to methanol ... And they switched 100% because of safty.. Facts .. Post facts please !! Not to start or continue a pissing match. 1964 Indy Cars had the safety of a Pinto (stock) when hit in the rear. The rulebook in the 60's was maybe a page long, compared to today's 200 +/- page rulebook. For a derby application a properly secured and protected tank you will "never" have a tank fire and/or explosion. I can also guarantee that at any derby I have been to, including MM I would rather run a fuel (gas) that is very visible while burning while I GTFO.
|
|
|
Post by Reed735 on Nov 8, 2012 20:14:38 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by derbydummy on Nov 8, 2012 20:24:50 GMT -5
What pissing match ? I stated the facts.. Wether it be in a derby car or an Indy car or whatever , methanol is and will continue to be less explosive , and burn at a slower rate , thus making it safer than high octane petroleum based fuel.. Thats the facts .. People can argue over opinions about how ya cant see methanol burn all ya want ... But thats just not the case this day and age. Thats a fairy tale. With the correct additives , you can see it burn just as good on a bright sunny day as gasoline.. Thats fact ! Ive been around alcohol for a long time , and still enjoy pulling my Ford powered junk pile in the ring with no radiator and watching the SBC's melt down !! THATS FACT ALSO !
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2012 20:26:54 GMT -5
Yes sir it posted. Nice blue flame. Anyways, pump gas will be run in my cars until I have more experience than I will maybe run methanol or E85.
|
|
|
Post by fordpower111 on Nov 10, 2012 0:19:58 GMT -5
I would not run pump gas its just crappie! compared to race fuel . Yes race fuel cost more but its a lot better quality. As for burn rates and methanol, the race fuel that i run has a lot slower burn rate than pump gas i know this by lighting a bon fire once and the only fuel i had was some tt111 114 octane track tek leftover from a derby. Its not nearly as slow as methanol but is slower than say 87 or 93 octane. The methanol if you want to see it burn you can buy the additives and mix it yourself or you can buy with the additive already mixed it. I don't know why anybody would run it without that's just dumb! you could jump out of your car and start flopping around like a dead fish on the ground and people would not know what the hell is going on and burn yourself up. In my experiences the fire department aren't to quick to put out a demo fires or try to put out a gas or oil fire with water and we all know what happens next! Not bashing any firefighters STAY COOL ! i'm glad that you all are there, and in derbydummy famous word THATS FACT! All kidding aside he's right!
|
|
|
Post by goines2 on Nov 10, 2012 0:31:55 GMT -5
I would not run pump gas its just crappie! compared to race fuel . Yes race fuel cost more but its a lot better quality. As for burn rates and methanol, the race fuel that i run has a lot slower burn rate than pump gas i know this by lighting a bon fire once and the only fuel i had was some tt111 114 octane track tek leftover from a derby. Its not nearly as slow as methanol but is slower than say 87 or 93 octane. The methanol if you want to see it burn you can buy the additives and mix it yourself or you can buy with the additive already mixed it. I don't know why anybody would run it without that's just dumb! you could jump out of your car and start flopping around like a dead fish on the ground and people would not know what the hell is going on and burn yourself up. In my experiences the fire department aren't to quick to put out a demo fires or try to put out a gas or oil fire with water and we all know what happens next! Not bashing any firefighters STAY COOL ! i'm glad that you all are there, and in derbydummy famous word THATS FACT! All kidding aside he's right! You really have no idea what you are talking about do you? If you run anything other than pump gas in a stock or mildly built motor all you are doing is wasting time and money. If your engine is not built to run racing fuel, you are doing yourself more harm than good.
|
|
|
Post by fordpower111 on Nov 10, 2012 3:00:01 GMT -5
I said stay cool but there is always one MR. Fireman Bull! any engine will benefit from higher octane. Yes, the 114 is overkill unless your running 12 to 1 or higher comp but it was free. I have ran race fuel in my daily drivers, motocross bikes, street bikes, ATV'S and hell even in my lawn mower and weedeater they all ran better. Always had the fuel going stale at the end of the year from racing so why not use it up. I was always told that any octane over 100 is a waste unless, you are running high compression. The simple fact is you don't need a built motor running 16 to1 compression to benefit from running race fuel, but it doesn't hurt. I like the rolling eyes keep up the good work!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2012 6:36:09 GMT -5
I was told you shouldn't run race fuel in a stock motor?
You gotta remember, it's a SBM with a timing chain. That's all.
|
|
|
Post by goines2 on Nov 10, 2012 6:50:02 GMT -5
I was told you shouldn't run race fuel in a stock motor? You gotta remember, it's a SBM with a timing chain. That's all. You were told correct! Regular pump gas, premium at the most. Race fuel WILL cause other problems in a stock motor. I promise!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2012 6:51:31 GMT -5
I was told you shouldn't run race fuel in a stock motor? You gotta remember, it's a SBM with a timing chain. That's all. You were told correct! Regular pump gas, premium at the most. Race fuel WILL cause other problems in a stock motor. I promise! Okay thanks. I'm probably going to use the most expensive pump gas. Which would be V-Power at Shell.
|
|
|
Post by derbydummy on Nov 10, 2012 8:36:30 GMT -5
I was told you shouldn't run race fuel in a stock motor? You gotta remember, it's a SBM with a timing chain. That's all. You were told correct! Regular pump gas, premium at the most. Race fuel WILL cause other problems in a stock motor. I promise! Please give one example of what "other" problems race fuel will cause if you run it in a stock engine ? Lets use VP110 Now explain what "problems" will I encounter if I use it in my 8.5 to 1 compression SBF or SBC. I'd like to hear some fact's that support your opinion. "any engine will benefit from higher octane" This comment is absolutly 100% FALSE. You only need enough octane in your fuel as it takes to prevent detonation.. FACT If your 8.5 to 1 sbc runs at peak efficiency on 87 octane pump gas , there will be virtually zero increase in performance if you switch and run a race fuel. FACT As your engine begins to overheat , cyclinder pressure and temperature rise.. Anytime cyclinder pressure rises , more octane is needed to prevent detonation. Your engine is detonating when it chugs along pinging and knocking and will barely move because its too hot !! Thats detonation.. With that said , a properly tuned 8.5 to 1 engine will perform better during overheating conditions running a higher quality fuel.. Thats why if Iam not running E85 I ALWAYS run VP110.. Dentonation is VERY destuctive...I cant think of 1 engine componet that would suffer durability issues from running a high quality race fuel like VP110.. Correct me if you think Iam wrong , but support your comment with some facts... Not just some open ended statement..
|
|
|
Post by pasterofmuppets on Nov 10, 2012 12:54:16 GMT -5
To present problems for what "racing fuel" can do to an engine, you first have to define racing fuel. Are we talking anything over 93 Octane? 100? 110? Leaded or Unleaded? There is no straight cookie cutter definition for it.
93 Octane pump gas is recommended for any street tuned engine below 13:1 compression ratio. 13:1 and higher requires Octane levels above 93 to prevent knocking and tapping.
While the information provided thus far has mostly been fact, as far as helping or hurting the engine, racing fuel really has no effect on the engine itself. Leaded Octanes above 93 will harm the O2 sensor and destroy the catalytic convertor over time in street engines, but that is not really relevant to our sport. Against common misconception, higher octane does not mean more power, higher torque, or more horsepower. It simply means, as stated above, the air and temperature mixture required to detonate the fuel is what gives it its octane reading, the lower the octane, the easier (and lower temp) the fuel mixture wil combust at. Obviously in our sport, we experience higher temps than normal daily driving or even some other racing motorsports. Therefore it would warrant a higher detonating temperature tolerant fuel in order to sustain power and torque for a continued duration.
Issues with "racing fuel" in stock engines is mostly old wives tales. The only documented cases I have been able to find either relate to leaded gasolines above 93 octane, or racing fuels that are dry (such as airplane fuel, and/or other marketed products that have lubricants added to the fuel).
Although simply running a solid 93 Octane is recommended, it certainly will not hurt your engine to go higher, just your wallet. With the benefit possibly being preventing early fuel detonation. The fuel alone however will not make this occur, as your timing and fuel system needs to be tuned to support this higher octane to receive full benefit from it.
It is however proven, in a study conducted by Honda (first noted testing started in the late 50's according to research and continues today) that higher torque and horsepower levels (relative to peak perfomance levels in any given stock compression engine) is achieved best with lower detonation level (lower octane) fuels in early running of the engine, and conversely lost over time as the engine temp increases and nears the temperature of pre-detonation. Whereas higher octane fuels produce lower torque and horsepower for a sustained amount of time until the engie temperature has reached a level just below the pre-detonation temps of that fuel. While the bell curve for peak performance on lower octane fuels is wider and longer in duration, it has a much lower lifetime after the engine temps reach critical levels. And while the bell curve of peak performance for higher octane fuels is much smaller and shorter in duration, the lifetime of the engine running is much longer than lower octane fuels.
Take the information for what you will. But summarily, higher octane fuels will neither help nor hurt your engine.
|
|
|
Post by leadsled71 on Dec 11, 2012 22:35:12 GMT -5
I know these threads pop up over and over, but im not here to ask about the pros and cons of running methanol over gasoline. I have ran alcohol on my chevelle street/strip car in the past, Im just trying to understand how to make it work with a derby application.
I have a very well built 355, that would do just fine if I switch over. It runs so well on gas I hate to mess with it, but I have seen how cool an alky motor will run. Im tired of breaking electric fans and mechanical fans that dont work as good as the electric, so thats why I want to switch.
are you guys using a mechanical alky fuel pump that bolts to the stock location? I only have expiereince with electric pumps and belt driven pumps. What are you using as a regulator? since the fuel pressure has to vary between idle and wide open throttle and not flood itself out at an idle. On a 2bbl carb, where does the return line come from that goes back to the tank? on a 4bbl you can use some sort of fuel log, but a 2bbl only has one inlet for the fuel coming in. Are you guys running a mechaical bypass that opens and closes a ball valve as the carb opens and closes? Just trying to get some ideas before I commit to the switch
|
|
|
Post by fordpower111 on Dec 12, 2012 0:26:43 GMT -5
If your wanting to switch to alky i would look at E-85 no return line, electric pump and carb and the same benefits as alcohol. I'm not sure about the regulator. My buddy runs a holley red pump with stainless lines and a QF carb and i don't think he runs a regulator but im not sure will fined out though. 2nd hit in the feature broke off the lower neck on rad and took 3rd it only got to 200 deg. Just an ideal though! Need more info just pm me. I'm switching to e85 also.
|
|
|
Post by Howler on Dec 12, 2012 2:13:26 GMT -5
You know alky burns 2x amount fuel? Most derbies around here only allow 5 gallon tank just checking...
|
|