bilt
Heat Winner
Posts: 168
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Post by bilt on Nov 3, 2013 10:00:21 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum! And yes some like to bash on here but there are many which actually like to help out the newbies to keep them interested in our sport.
Most people will not admit to loading a frame or using anything illegal. Some rules do allow these ideas to be added to the cars. There will always be weak spots in the frames. If you load it and make it strong in a weak area you normally just chase the weak spot to another area so it bends there.
I've helped build a car in the early 2000's which ran in "modified" derbies. We "pinned and laddered" the frame in it which was allowed. It really helped to make it hard but the car finally did bend after about nine derbies.
I've seen talk about the spray foam in frames but have only used it in and around the radiator support which is allowed in our old rules. It helped harden this area but the downside is, If you go back to cut or weld around it we kept burning the stuff and it's hard to put out.
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Post by seventyonehemicuda on Nov 3, 2013 11:09:16 GMT -5
I figured foam might be a bit of a fire hazard.
I think we all cheat, its just a matter of how far each of us go. some would say its wrong to fill a frame with concrete, but its okay to put in an imperial sub... there would be no reason to put in an imperial sub unless imperials were illegal in a particular derby.
I think an imperial sub is the ultimate cheat, its not fair to anyone else at a demo when someone brings a tank disguised as a newyorker or Newport, etc....
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bilt
Heat Winner
Posts: 168
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Post by bilt on Nov 3, 2013 11:18:27 GMT -5
^^^^exactly. This last year I ran stock bolt and chain derbies. The cars were inspected fairly so the cars in the arena were all similar. It was the first year in a long time that derbies were fun again.
When you don't have to push the rules building a car in order to compete it took a lot of stress and hot tempers out of the equation making the season a fun hobby. Barclay Wilt
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Post by STROMI 121 on Nov 3, 2013 19:38:02 GMT -5
Welcome to Wecrash
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Post by maddmaxx on Nov 3, 2013 20:18:31 GMT -5
seventyonehemicuda: If you have a way of flipping a y-framer ect on the roof,it is very easy to fill half the rear frame rails with crete.Then you can fill the humps with crete.With filling only half/top side @ inspection there will be a open hole in the side of frame.Also you can put a rubber body plug in the hole.Same with humps after you fill them up.
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Post by fordpower111 on Nov 3, 2013 21:05:23 GMT -5
I prefer steel over concrete. It was a lot easier to compete before the scopes and you could run a body mount bolt through the frame now days it's about frame shaping and how straight you can get your frame tilting, cold bending, notching etc. You don't won't HP you won't torque and gearing with a lot of weight.
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Post by ddoner7 on Nov 4, 2013 1:44:58 GMT -5
Anyone else try the spray foam in the compacts or full size? Did it make much of a difference? I have heard of local guys doing it but never seen it.
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Post by seventyonehemicuda on Nov 4, 2013 7:32:15 GMT -5
seventyonehemicuda: If you have a way of flipping a y-framer ect on the roof,it is very easy to fill half the rear frame rails with crete.Then you can fill the humps with crete.With filling only half/top side @ inspection there will be a open hole in the side of frame.Also you can put a rubber body plug in the hole.Same with humps after you fill them up. HA!! That's crazy! I thought a person would have to plug the bottom of the frame, then drill holes and fill the humps from the top. flipping the car over just makes too much sense.... too cool. Anyone else have input on spray foam?
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Post by seventyonehemicuda on Nov 4, 2013 7:38:58 GMT -5
^^^^exactly. This last year I ran stock bolt and chain derbies. The cars were inspected fairly so the cars in the arena were all similar. It was the first year in a long time that derbies were fun again. When you don't have to push the rules building a car in order to compete it took a lot of stress and hot tempers out of the equation making the season a fun hobby. Barclay Wilt My home town runs a Stock derby. pretty much only allowed to weld the doors and trunk a little bit and no imperials... its a way simple build and a riot to drive in. ALL the hits go "Crunch"
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dm440c
Feature Winner
derby drivers against drama- there's no crying in demo derby!
Posts: 2,824
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Post by dm440c on Nov 4, 2013 13:32:56 GMT -5
The title of this thread is "cheating frames" so I had to scratch my head a bit about what kind of discussion we are having. Can we change it to "reinforcing frames" and remove the implication that somebody is purposely performing illegal mods to their car to gain a competitive advantage? Cement in the frames has ups and downs, for one thing you have the issue with Mopars of the frame being a three sided piece of steel that is spot welded to the underside of the floor. It doesn't take that much pressure to split the seams and start spilling the concrete since it has nowhere else to go but out, but it probably helps more than it hurts overall. Pinning or plating frames with steel will of course help to slow the bending process but as stated above, the universal rule in demo derby is that each newly fixed weakness will reveal the next weakness down the line. Again, reinforcing the common bend points will not eliminate bending but will slow the process down and make the car last longer. Just basic Engineering concepts at work there. Hate to say it after the mini-diatribe in the first post but if you look around you'll find a lot of information already on here about frame reinforcement concepts . Oh, and if you've made the leap from "Reader" to "Question Asker" you might later make the leap to "Question Answerer", and if you do, you will undoubtedly eventually understand the frustration of answering the same questions over and over and then you might also occasionally vent that frustration on some poor hapless doofus who is too lazy to do a little research but assumes that you are not too lazy to type the same answer again for the 35th time
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lost1
Future Icon
Posts: 19
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Post by lost1 on Nov 4, 2013 15:17:27 GMT -5
if you flip a unibody over you might as well weld every seam while its upside down then pin it then fill it with crete then fill the rockers with the leftover crete then plate the floors top and bottom and weld that in then bolt in a plated imp sub with 1 inch bolts then run kickers from your cage to the front and back along with your gtp then put your armored motor in then weld up your loaded front bumper.........etc, etc, etc.
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Post by seventyonehemicuda on Nov 4, 2013 16:40:09 GMT -5
The title of this thread is "cheating frames" so I had to scratch my head a bit about what kind of discussion we are having. Can we change it to "reinforcing frames" and remove the implication that somebody is purposely performing illegal mods to their car to gain a competitive advantage? Cement in the frames has ups and downs, for one thing you have the issue with Mopars of the frame being a three sided piece of steel that is spot welded to the underside of the floor. It doesn't take that much pressure to split the seams and start spilling the concrete since it has nowhere else to go but out, but it probably helps more than it hurts overall. Pinning or plating frames with steel will of course help to slow the bending process but as stated above, the universal rule in demo derby is that each newly fixed weakness will reveal the next weakness down the line. Again, reinforcing the common bend points will not eliminate bending but will slow the process down and make the car last longer. Just basic Engineering concepts at work there. Hate to say it after the mini-diatribe in the first post but if you look around you'll find a lot of information already on here about frame reinforcement concepts . Oh, and if you've made the leap from "Reader" to "Question Asker" you might later make the leap to "Question Answerer", and if you do, you will undoubtedly eventually understand the frustration of answering the same questions over and over and then you might also occasionally vent that frustration on some poor hapless doofus who is too lazy to do a little research but assumes that you are not too lazy to type the same answer again for the 35th time Cheating is Cheating, we all do it. If a set of rules doesn't specifically say "no concrete in frames" it must be okay right? If a rule set says "no Imperials" it must mean they actually want you to remove the subframe from an imperial an install it under the car you wish to run right? "automotive tires only", doesn't say no doubling/tripling of tires.... We all push the limits as far as we can until an official says: "okay fine, but next year we are going to change the rules so that we won't be seeing this again." my town specifically states "no stuffing frames" there's a demo 2 hours away though, that pretty much lets anything go. other than an imperial, OR imperial sub-frames. I'm interested to see how far some people go, I'm just looking to push the limits a little further, maybe break a few if i can do so without getting caught. worded properly I suppose i should state that " I want to purposely perform illegal mods to cars to gain a competitive advantages" im not scared to admit that i cheat. I certainly don't run around the pit area telling others all of the little extra's ive done to my car, hell i hardly even tell my friends about the extra's that i do for fear that word will spread, and new rules will be created. I follow the rules (up to this point), but there is alot that rules don't say...
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Post by maddmaxx on Nov 4, 2013 21:53:42 GMT -5
DO NOT take me wrong on this thread.If I load a frame,triple body panels ect,it will only run with the same built cars period.I do not or will not run a loaded car against stock cars.That is not cool !!
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bilt
Heat Winner
Posts: 168
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Post by bilt on Nov 4, 2013 22:49:05 GMT -5
Brother, my advice would be to build a good and reliable car. Last season I ran a Grand Marquis that started every time it died in the arena. It was built within the rules and I had a blast running it.
It's easy to pick out a car which is loaded or pushed the rules. It's not fun to be in the pits with cars like this as you become a target in the pits. In this sport people's reputations follow them and your stuff will get junked eventually. It's a lot easier path to be a role model in the pits and on the track where people respect you. Once you get a target on your back it's not easily taken off.
When cars are all evenly built and it cones down to a good clean show it makes this sport a lot more enjoyable for everyone involved...including the spectators. No one wants to see cheated car win! Mostly the drivers which follow the rules hate to see a cheated car win and that's not soon forgotten by other drivers. Barclay Wilt
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Post by maddmaxx on Nov 9, 2013 20:00:40 GMT -5
bilt: Very well said in your above post.Last 3 crown vic's I ran was best fun I had in a very long time.I'm use to building a car for 6 months to a year just to compete.With the vic's,think I spent 3 months on one cause it was a team event car.Other 2 was maybe a month build.The derby world can not blame the builders in a loaded car.I blame the inspection crews period.My area is dam glad I do not inspect at show's.There would be certain cars not running cause that's all they do is cheat.I have more respect for a guy who just throws a car together and goes out and puts on a good show.Then some guy who loads up a car and plain junks everybody in the heat.This day and age officials only care about car counts period.Come on it's so obvious when a car is still straight in a heat and the rest are junk.Man I said enough cause I could go on all night about this issue(lol).
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