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Post by heyheynorm on Aug 6, 2012 12:14:37 GMT -5
The top shows everything inline or "stock" when it is like this the area behind the front wheels is the weakest spot of the subframe (area of s-curve). By taking out the back spacers and increasing the spacers at the core support you create a pivot point. By creating this pivot point you move the slide the weakest spot back to the end of the subframe (back seat floorboard area). This week spot becomes greater when you increase the stiffness of the backend (flat stacks). I have ran the sub in stock position with stock spacers, frame gave behind the front wheels. I have ran the sub with a 4" spacer in the front and with the firewall and back mounts tight to the body. The frame started to bend behind the front wheel, just in front of firewall, and in the back seat floorboard. I have ran the sub with a 4" spacer in the front, no spacer in the rear two, and enough of a spacer to fill the gap at the firewall. The car gave at the back seat floorboard and eventually started to give behind the front wheel. All "tilting" the front end does is move the weakest spot back further, if you "fix" it from bending there your just going to move the weakest spot back to original location. However I always had an imp pointy on the front, flatter bumper may have ended differently.
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Post by mkvien on Aug 6, 2012 16:01:28 GMT -5
I would have to agree with Chevysucks on this one. I don't see how putting spacers in the core suport makes the frame go down. There is no way to do so unless you cold bend it or cut and weld it. After you have the torsion bars up than there is no way the body is going to push the frame down. it doesn't matter if the body is welded or not. It may look tilted like the fords do from the side view but there is no change in the frame. I might be way off, but I have no idea what spacers that the core support have to do with anything. If you shim at the firewall, the body raises up. When the body raises up, it pulls the rear mount of the frame up, correct? So doesn't the angle of the frame to the ground change? Isn't that pretty much what you do when you tilt a Ford at the crossmember? The spacers on the core support are there for one (or more) of several reasons, to make the body fit without tweaking the fenders after tilting, to move the core suport up to protect the bottom of the radiator, or 3rd (and just as likely), to make someones car look like one they thought looked cool that they saw on the internets.
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Post by chevysucks on Aug 6, 2012 16:29:18 GMT -5
raising the fire wall does not pull the rear mount up since that is your pivot point. The only way spacing the firewall up would work to tilt the frame is if you cut out the floor of the shocker and let the frame come up inside the cab other wise all your doing is lifting up the front clip! easy way to prove this is put a level on the frame it wont change
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Post by chevysucks on Aug 6, 2012 16:30:18 GMT -5
and the reason it works on Crown Vic's is they are a full frame car!
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Post by ironman712 on Aug 6, 2012 16:48:34 GMT -5
Just throwing this out there but build it how itwrks for you and don't worry about what other ppl think now that's what has always worked for me ;D
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hemi1
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Post by hemi1 on Aug 6, 2012 23:16:04 GMT -5
totally agree,do what works for you.We have tried several different types of builds in the last 40 years.If you don't experiment once in awhile you will never better yourself,but it can also sometimes make you go back to your old ways too.
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Post by mkvien on Aug 7, 2012 8:30:18 GMT -5
raising the fire wall does not pull the rear mount up since that is your pivot point. The only way spacing the firewall up would work to tilt the frame is if you cut out the floor of the shocker and let the frame come up inside the cab other wise all your doing is lifting up the front clip! easy way to prove this is put a level on the frame it wont change This is silly, does the frame come up in the car in a Ford? What makes the rear mount of the Mopar sub-frame any different than the same point on a full frame, they are both still mounted up against to bottom of the body. When you cut and tilt a Ford, you are raising that point in the frame and dropping the front down relative to the front of the body, same applies to a subframe.
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Post by edsauto518 on Aug 7, 2012 9:22:58 GMT -5
I am by no means a engineer or the smartest person but all I know is i put a 2" spacer at the cowl bolts and it droped the front bumper down and leveled out the frame rails a bit.The way I was looking at it is if you undo the the cowl bolts and jack the car up in the middle the front bumper and the rear bumper drop(your pretty much bending the car in half) same idea as a tilt at the crossmember I would think.
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dm440c
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Post by dm440c on Aug 7, 2012 10:46:40 GMT -5
this is very difficult to follow as a text conversation, it seems like everybody is talking in circles and may even be arguing the same point of view without realizing it.
help me out here...
1) are any of the people in this discussion talking about cold OR hot bending the subframe INDEPENDENTLY (ignore the body for a moment)?
2) if so, where is the pivot point on the subframe?
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99x
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Post by 99x on Aug 7, 2012 11:48:55 GMT -5
Pin it to win it!
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Post by heyheynorm on Aug 7, 2012 11:58:19 GMT -5
raising the fire wall does not pull the rear mount up since that is your pivot point. The only way spacing the firewall up would work to tilt the frame is if you cut out the floor of the shocker and let the frame come up inside the cab other wise all your doing is lifting up the front clip! easy way to prove this is put a level on the frame it wont change Sorry but I feel that you are incorrect, but not entirely. If you mount the firewall mounts without spacers and the rear two mounts without spacers, while only adding spacers it the top, it depends on if the clip was attached to the body when doing this or not. If the clip was mounted in the stock location, and not adjusted, you are placing extreme pressure to both the clip and sub. I have done this once trying to clear room for the radiator, at the end I was calling myself a dumbass, this simply puts to much tension on everything. If the goal is to just clear space for the radiator, and were my car, I would unbolt the clip and reattach at an angle. But this is where I feel you are incorrect. If you are looking to "tilt" the subframe your pivot point would be the rear bolts. If you look at the middle sketch you will see that by raising the front around the rear bolts, you push the back on the car downward. If you were to do this, while keeping the new angle, you need to rotate the entire car so the wheels are on the same plane (bottom sketch). This lowers the front bumper and raises the body/clip from the middle towards the front. this is very difficult to follow as a text conversation, it seems like everybody is talking in circles and may even be arguing the same point of view without realizing it. help me out here... 1) are any of the people in this discussion talking about cold OR hot bending the subframe INDEPENDENTLY (ignore the body for a moment)? 2) if so, where is the pivot point on the subframe? 1) I don't believe so, at least that's my take on it. The sketch that I posted does not include changing anything with the subframe just mounting it at a deflected angle from the stock alignment with the body.
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Post by chevysucks on Aug 7, 2012 13:42:45 GMT -5
raising the fire wall does not pull the rear mount up since that is your pivot point. The only way spacing the firewall up would work to tilt the frame is if you cut out the floor of the shocker and let the frame come up inside the cab other wise all your doing is lifting up the front clip! easy way to prove this is put a level on the frame it wont change This is silly, does the frame come up in the car in a Ford? What makes the rear mount of the Mopar sub-frame any different than the same point on a full frame, they are both still mounted up against to bottom of the body. When you cut and tilt a Ford, you are raising that point in the frame and dropping the front down relative to the front of the body, same applies to a subframe. . The frame on a ford is cut or cold bent down causing the tilting affect that is why it works. What everyone one is talking about doing will only raise the body up on a shocker it does nothing to how the frame sits. The difference between a ford and sub frame is there actually bending the frame and you saying lifting the body does the same thing! So your "theory " basically says a guy could raise the body on a vic and it would be tilted. If you dont want to believe me. Use a level next time you have a shocker your doing these to and check it. The angle of the frame wont change
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Post by solidgold on Aug 7, 2012 14:00:00 GMT -5
This is getting old. It does change the angle the frame sits. I know, I put a level on it to determine how much of a spacer at the firewall is needed to make the front sit level. The spacer changes depending on how the ass end is setup. It works because its a subframe it has a pivot point. Fords don't have one so it must be crated by cutting.
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Post by edsauto518 on Aug 7, 2012 14:24:39 GMT -5
This is getting old. It does change the angle the frame sits. I know, I put a level on it to determine how much of a spacer at the firewall is needed to make the front sit level. The spacer changes depending on how the ass end is setup. It works because its a subframe it has a pivot point. Fords don't have one so it must be crated by cutting. Agree 100% just did it and it tips the frame.
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Post by mkvien on Aug 7, 2012 15:24:12 GMT -5
This is getting old. It does change the angle the frame sits. I know, I put a level on it to determine how much of a spacer at the firewall is needed to make the front sit level. The spacer changes depending on how the ass end is setup. It works because its a subframe it has a pivot point. Fords don't have one so it must be crated by cutting. Agree 100% just did it and it tips the frame. Hey Chevy, the wheels stay on the ground and the rear mount of the frame goes up as you add spacers at the firewall, how the hell does that not change the angle of the frame relative to the ground? DMC, I don't think anyone is pre-bending the frame here, can't think of how that would help unless you can bend and then plate it.
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